📜 Verbum
Scripture and the Fathers, read aloud in the original

← All books · Greek Fathers › Symposium & Fragments

Methodius

Symposium & Fragments 3-7

Greek original · 5 verses · some words can be tapped for a gloss

← ch. 3-6ch. 3-8 →
3-7:1
φέρε γάρ, ἐπειδὴ σὺν τῷ θεῷ φάναι) ἐνταῦθα τοῦ λόγου γεγόναμεν, ἤτω τις ἀνδριάς, ἑστὼς ἐπὶ βάσεως, καλός· οὗ οἱ θεώμενοι τὴν εὔρυθμον καλλονὴν διαφερέσθωσαν πρὸς ἀλλήλους, πῇ μὲν γενητόν, πῇ δὲ καὶ ἀγένητον πειρώμενοι λέγειν
For come now—since (with God's help, if one may say so) we have reached this point in the discussion—let there be some statue, standing upon a base, a beautiful one; and let those who behold its well-proportioned beauty differ with one another, some attempting to say it is generated, and some that it is even ungenerated.
那麼,來罷——既然(容我這樣說,靠著神的幫助)我們的討論已到了這地步——就設有一座立在底座上的雕像,是美麗的;讓那些觀看它勻稱之美的人彼此爭論,有的設法說它是被造成的,有的卻說它甚至是非受造的。
3-7:2
ἐροίμὴν γὰρ σφᾶς, Δι ἣν αἰτίαν ἀγένητον αὐτόν φατε; πότερον διὰ τὸν τεχνίτην, ὅπως μηδαμῶς ἀργήσας τῆς δημιουργίας νομίζοιτο, δι ἑαυτόν; ἂν μὲν γὰρ διὰ τὸν τεχνίτην, πῶς ἀγένητος ὢν πρὸς τοῦ τεχνίτου δημιουργεῖται; εἰ γὰρ ὅλως ἐν ἐνδείᾳ τῆς τέχνης καθέστηκε χαλκουργούμενος πρὸς τὸ σχεῖν ὁποῖον δημιουργὸς ἐθέλοι καρακτῆρα, ποίῳ τρόπῳ ἀγένγτος ἔσται πάσχων τε καὶ δρώμενος; εἰ δὲ αὖ δι ἑαυτὸν τέλειος καὶ ἀγένητος λέγοιτο μὴ δεῖσθαι τῆς τέχνης ἀνδριάς, κατὰ τὸ ὀλέθριον δόημα, ἀνάγκη αὐτοματισμὸν ὁμολογεῖν
For I would ask them: For what cause do you say it is ungenerated? Is it on account of the craftsman, that he may in no way be reckoned to have been idle in his craftsmanship, or on account of itself? For if on account of the craftsman, how, being ungenerated, is it crafted by the craftsman? For if it stands in need of the art at all, being wrought in bronze so as to take whatever character the craftsman wills, in what manner will it be ungenerated, being both acted upon and wrought? But if again the statue is said to be perfect and ungenerated through itself, having no need of the art, according to that destructive doctrine, one must confess spontaneous self-origination.
因為我要問他們:你們是為何緣由說它是非受造的呢?是因著那匠人,免得他在工藝上被算為閒置了,還是因著雕像自身呢?因為若是因著那匠人,那它既是非受造的,怎能還被匠人所造呢?因為它若全然需要那技藝,被鑄於銅中以致取得匠人所願的任何形貌,那它既被動受作、又被製造,怎會是非受造的呢?但若反過來說,那雕像是憑自己完全且非受造的,照那害人的道理,並不需要那技藝,人就不得不承認那自然而然的自生了。
3-7:3
εἰδ οὐδὲ τοῦτον ἴσως ἐθελήσαντες προσήκασθαι τὸν λόγον πικρότερον ἀποκρινοῦνται, τὸ μὲν βρέτας ἀγένητον οὐκ εἶναι λέγοντες, γενητὸν δὲ εἶναι ἀεὶ γενέσεως ἀρχὴν οὐκ ἔχον, ὅπως ἀνάρχως λέγοιτο κρατεῖν τοῦ τεχνάσματος τεχνίτης, Οὐκοῦν, οὗτοι, λέξομεν αὐτοῖς, εἰ μὴ χρόνος μήτε αἰὼν εὑρίσκοιτο ἐπάνω, ὅτε οὐκ ἦν τέλειος ἀνδριάς, τί παρέσχεν αὐτῷ τεχνίτας τί ἐνήργησεν εἰς αὐτόν, φατέ
And if perhaps, being unwilling to accept even this argument, they answer more bitterly, saying that the image is not ungenerated, but is generated while never having a beginning of generation, so that the craftsman may be said to rule the artefact without any beginning—then, O these men, we shall say to them: If neither time nor age be found above, when the statue was not perfect, what did the craftsman provide for it, or what did he work upon it? Tell us.
倘若他們或許連這論證也不肯接受,便更刻薄地回答,說那像並非非受造的,乃是雖生成卻從沒有生成之開端的,好叫那匠人可以說是無始地統管著那作品——那麼,這些人哪,我們就要對他們說:若在其上尋不出有時間或世代是那雕像尚未完成之時,那匠人為它供應了什麼,或在它身上作了什麼工呢?請告訴我們。
3-7:4
εἰ γὰρ αὐτὸς ἀνενδεὴς ὢν καὶ οὐκ ἔχων ἀρχὴν γενέσεως τυγχάνει, ταύτῃ μᾶλλον καθ ὑμᾶς δημιουργὸς οὐδέποτε δημιουργήσας δημιουργῶν εὑρεθήσεται, καὶ πάλιν εἰς αὐτὸ ἔοικεν λόγος περιδεδραμηκέναι, αύτοματισμὸν ὁμολογεῖν. ἐὰν γὰρ κἂν τὸ ἀκαριαίτατον > ἀνδριάντα κινῆσαι δημιουργὸς λεχθῇ, ἀρχῇ ὑποπεσεῖται, καθ ἣν πρότερον αὐτὸν ἄκοσμον καὶ ἀκίνητον ὄντα ἤρξατο κινεῖν καὶ κοσμεῖν. οὔκουν καὶ ἠν καὶ ἔσται διηνεκῶς αὐτὸς ἀεὶ κόσμος· ἀπεικαστέον γὰρ τῷ μὲν θεῷ τὸν τεχνίτην, τὸν δὲ ἀνδριάντα τῷ κόσμῳ
For if it is itself without need and has no beginning of generation, then all the more, according to you, the craftsman, never having crafted, will be found to be crafting; and again the argument seems to have run back to the same point—to confess spontaneous self-origination. For if the craftsman be said to have moved the statue even for the briefest instant, it will fall under a beginning, in accordance with which he began to move and order it, that was formerly disordered and motionless. So then the same world neither was nor will be perpetually the same; for the craftsman must be likened to God, and the statue to the world.
因為它若自身無所需求、又沒有生成之開端,那照你們所說,那匠人雖從未曾製造,卻反倒更要被尋見是正在製造的;這樣,論證似乎又跑回到同一點上了——就是要承認那自然而然的自生。因為那匠人若被說成曾將那雕像哪怕挪動了極短的一瞬,它便要落在一個開端之下,匠人正是照這開端開始挪動並妝點那先前雜亂、靜止之物的。可見那同一個世界既非從前永是、也非將來永是同一的;因為那匠人當比作神,那雕像當比作世界。
3-7:5
πῇ δὴ οὐν, ἠλίθιοι, οἴεσθε τὴν κτίσιν συναπέραντον οὐσαν τῷ δημιουργῷ μὴ δεῖσθαι τοῦ δημιουργοῦ; τὸ γὰρ συναπέραντον, μηδαμῶς ἀρχὴν γενέσεως ἔχον, καὶ συναγένγτον καὶ ἰσοδύναμον ἀνάγκη τυγχάνειν. τὸ δὲ ἀγένητον, αὐτοτελὲς καὶ ἄτρεπτον φανθέν, καὶ ἀπροσδεὲς καὶ ἄφθορον ἔσται· καὶ εἰ τοῦτο οὕτως ἔχει, οὐκέτι κόσμος τρεπτὸς καθ ὑμᾶς
In what way, then, O foolish men, do you suppose that the creation, being coextensive in limit with the Creator, has no need of the Creator? For that which is coextensive in limit, having in no way a beginning of generation, must necessarily also be co-ungenerated and equal in power. But the ungenerated, shown to be self-perfect and unchangeable, will also be without need and incorruptible; and if this is so, the world is no longer mutable according to you.
那麼,你們這愚昧的人哪,你們怎能以為那受造之物既與創造主在無界中同等並存,竟不需要那創造主呢?因為那與之同等並存、又絕無生成之開端的,便必然也是與祂同為非受造的、並與祂能力相等的。但那非受造的,既被顯為是自我完全、不改變的,便也要是無所需求、不能朽壞的了;若是如此,那世界照你們所說便不再是可變的了。
← ch. 3-6ch. 3-8 →
1-11-21-31-41-51-61-71-81-91-101-112-12-22-32-42-52-62-72-82-92-102-112-122-132-152-162-172-182-192-223-13-23-33-43-53-63-73-83-93-103-113-124-14-24-34-44-55-15-25-35-45-55-65-75-85-95-105-115-125-135-145-155-165-175-185-195-205-215-225-235-245-25